gooood团队采访世界各地的创意人，欢迎您的推荐和建议。
第3期为您奉上的是Oyler Wu Collaborative。

gooood team interviews creative from all over the world. Your recommendations and suggestions are welcomed!
gooood Interview NO.3 introduces Oyler Wu Collaborative.

出品人：向玲 , 王耀华 Producer: Ling Xiang , Yaohua Wang
团队：sanjay sukie, 李珍 Team: sanjay sukie, Zhen Li

▼点击下方观看视频，click to watch the video

Interview
gooood x Oyler Wu

作者：王耀华
WORDS BY Yaohua Wang

说到Oyler Wu Collaborative，就不得不说说Design-Build。

Design-Build对于建筑师来说是一种将设计和建造结合的状态，是一种回馈性的工作方法。建筑师从概念，到设计，到建造，亲力亲为。通过这种亲力亲，建筑师对最终成品的质量有了自己的把握，而不是局限于承包商或是施工队的水平；同时这种亲力亲为的经验，会回馈在日后的设计上。我感觉这种状态很像中国古代的匠人，在作品和设计师之间存在了一种亲密的关系，对于设计师来说是一种缓慢而直观的积累。同时Design-Build也是一种精神，一种不害怕把自己的手弄脏的精神。Build要求大量的体力投入，承担犯错和受伤的风险。这种精神的前提是设计师对于自己作品的热爱和信心。也只有这种热爱和信心，才能让一个接受了至少7年象牙塔教育的人(在Oyler Wu Collaborative的例子里，Dwayne Oyler和Jenny Wu都是Harvard GSD毕业), 脱下自己的西服，投入在在建设场所的风吹日晒中。Design-Build在美国的产生与美国建筑市场规模普遍偏小的特点有分不开的关系，每一个机会都来之不易，所以面对机会，建筑师也就格外珍惜。但是同时这种缓慢的小规模的实践，对于建筑师来说就像是一个修行的过程，面对大规模的设计时，建造经验的回馈也就带来了不同味道的作品。Oyler Wu Collaborative是在美国Design-Build的杰出代表，他们的每一个作品，都生动的反映着美学，构造，和设计风格之间的紧密关系，他们的实践让Design-Build变的格外的生动，Design-Build也让他们的作品变的格外的有趣。

1.

你们能向观众介绍一下自己以及你们的公司吗？
Can you guys introduce yourself and your firm to our audience to our audience?

我叫德韦恩·奥伊勒，是奥伊勒·伍合作事务所的合伙人之一。我叫詹妮·吴，我和德韦恩于2004年在洛杉矶创建了奥伊勒·伍合作事务所。

My name is Dwayne Oyler, one of the partners of Olyer Wu Collaborative, and my name is Jenny Wu and Dwayne and I found it, Oyler Wu Collaborative, in 2004, in Los Angeles.

2.
我发现线条和密度是你们的设计方案中非常重要的组成部分，那么对你们来说它们为什么这么重要呢？这背后的理念是什么呢？
I feel like line and Density is a very important part to you guys design approach, so why is this so important to you guys and what is the idea behind it?

我们一直就对线条和密度很感兴趣，从学生时代就对它们有兴趣，真的。我们对某种特殊的线条和密度感兴趣，尤其是那种有着三个维度的的线条。我们从来没有像关注二维图形那样关注过它，尽管我们所做的那些绘图是这么显示的。我们所感兴趣的类型总是那种有空间感的东西，要有一定的深度。我们喜欢它是有原因的，我们试着把这个问题来分解一下。其中一个原因是，它能允许我们去体验，这种体验总是在前景和背景之间来回移动。因此，一方面你可以伸出手去碰触一条线，同时你又能马上重新聚焦，这样它就变成了无限，有着无限的深度。

我们一直对它感兴趣的另一个想法极有可能非常明显，从我们所做的很多项目中都能看出来，即我们把它当做一种建筑构思。我们之所以对它有兴趣是因为如果你观察过很多工程项目，那么你会发现其背后的构造原理并不总是非常清晰的，尽管它们都在构造中发挥作用。它们一点点地发挥作用，有的作用会比其他的作用大些。而且我们并不能总是非常直接地去追踪结构逻辑。因此我们喜欢这样一种想法，即在结构表现上所做的工作要想被真正理解，它就必须是长时间积累起来的经验，并且我们认为延伸后的经验会让工作变得更加丰富多彩。

我只想补充一点，即线条作为几何图形它是纯粹的，我们如何对待如此简单的东西并利用它来建造复杂的东西是非常了不起的一项工作，我觉得这就是我们一直非常感兴趣的东西。甚至我们回顾自己在哈佛大学所做的毕业论文项目，它们也都是与线条和轨迹相关的。所以我觉得这是一个很好的主题，尽管它是一个如此简单的几何图形，无论是在概念上、物质上还是几何学上它的内涵却非常丰富，因此它是一个需要我们长时间去探究的东西。

Well line and density is something we been interested in for, since the time we were students really, and we interested in a particular kind of line and density, especially a type of line that has a three dimensionality to it. We never been so interested in it as 2 dimensional graphic, although certainly the kind of drawings that we do are showing it that way. The type that we have been interested in is always spatial, it has depth to it, we liked it for a few reasons and we try to break it down. One of those is the ability of it to allow for experience that is always moving back and forth between foreground and background. So on one hand you can reach out and touch a piece of line and at the same time in an instant you could then refocus and then it becomes infinite, it has infinite depth.

Another idea we have always been interested in probably obvious from alot of projects is that we been interested in it as a structural idea. We are interested in that because it if you look on alot of the work the structural principles behind it are not always super clear, while they all doing structural work, they are doing it in small amounts and some pieces are doing to more than others and tracing the structural logic is not always straight forward. So we like the idea that the work in its structural performance have to be experience over a long period of time to truly be understood and that extended experience , we thought would make the work richer.

And I just want to add that line as geometry is pure and there is something about how we take something so simple and build complexity out of it. And I think that is something we have been very interested in and even we are looking back on our own work from our thesis projects at Harvard, it had to do with about lines and trajectories. So I think I feel this is a topic that I feel about that, even though it is such a simple geometry, it has so much richness both conceptually. Both materially and geometrically that I think this is something that we can explore for a long time.

3.

说到这个话题，材料是你们的实践中非常有意思的一个组成部分，在你们的项目中有某些材料像早期的木头以及最近的像钢和绳子之类的，你们为什么选择这样的材料呢？这又与你们的设计方案有着怎样的关联呢？
And from that, the material is an interesting part of you guys practice, there is certain material showing in your projects like wood in the early period and more recently more like steel and rope so why choose this kind of material and how this is connects back to your design approach?

我觉得材料的选择在某种程度上或许并不是故意而为之的，很多时候我们面对的项目类型决定了我们去选择什么样的材料。例如，当我们刚刚起步的时候，早期的一些项目主要是用木头来做的，因为我们知道如何去使用这种材料。后来为了达到项目的规模和精致度的要求，我们开始转向使用铝，因为它像木头一样可操作，但是它具有一定的线性特质，这是木头所不具备的，而且它还能够扩展并能在结构上进行改变，当然后来我们就学着去焊接，学着用这种材料来工作。但是我觉得对我们来说，重要的是用任何材料都不能只用一次，而是能尽可能地重复使用。例如，在做铝管项目时我们大概做了四个。我们真的是从很多项目的工作中才学会了如何很好地来做这样的事、如何真正地在材料内部实现创新。所以，现在我们正开始从事大型的安装工程，我们不想把很多块钢焊接到一起，于是我们引进了绳子。我们该如何使用一种柔软的、比较长的东西，如何把它编织到一起来构建密闭空间呢？

决定使用何种材料似乎是以先前的项目为基础的。当我们刚开始使用铝时，就像詹妮说的，我们在做决定时考虑了很多因素，其中可加工性是第一要素，但是在我们做决定时（例如是否要完成它或者如何来完成它），又产生了一系列其他的想法。例如，我们在做第一个项目时所做的决定就是所有的铝，尤其是在那些工作的晚上我们发现从铝上产生了这种神奇的火花。我们实验了很多便宜的方法来完成工作，我们从来没有发现比它还费体力的工作。我们觉得它给我们的项目带来了太多的东西，以至于在这之后的几个项目中我们又采取了同样的做法。

在之后的那些项目中，我们用铝来工作的方式在每个项目中都会发生些变化。例如，我们不再焊接接缝处，而是把结合处弄弯曲，最终我们达到了一种程度，就是在铝的使用上我们已经穷尽了所有方法。现在对于较大型的项目我们仍然有一些想法，但是在最近的项目中我们已转向使用钢，这种材料也有特别之处，它本身与铝的表现方式不同，它不想产生闪烁，它也不能产生自然的闪烁。现在我们看到的是一些钢结构被涂上了漆，我们想通过使用颜色来让它产生不同的效果，而这在以前的项目中我们从来没有使用过。

I think the choice of material ,maybe in some ways is not so, not such a deliberate decision a lot of times the way we , what types of projects came to us kind of dictated the material, for instance when we first started the first few projects were out of wood basically it was a material that we knew how to use, and as the scale of the project and the refinement of the project is necessary we moved into working with aluminum because it was workable like wood but it had the kind of linear qualities that wood didn’t have. And also it was able to span and work structurally and then of course then we learn to weld and work with the material but I think it was important to us with any material not to do only once but to do enough iteration of it for instance with aluminum tube projects we done about four of them and its really though working through many projects that we learn how to do it well and how to really innovate within the material. So now as we are moving into larger installations, we didn’t want to weld more pieces of steel together and this where the rope came in and how do we use something that is pliable and that is long and how do we weave it together to create enclosure.

Material decisions have seem to have build on the previous projects, when we first built aluminum like Jenny said they were a lot of factors that went into the decision to use aluminum, the workability was the number one factor but as we make decisions as to whether to or how to finish it. For example, that started a whole series of other ideas for example the decision we made on the very first project was lets orbital sand all of the aluminum and we discovered particularly in the evenings that there was this amazing sparkle that came off of the aluminum and as labor intensive as it was. We tried lots of inexpensive ways to accomplish that we never found one as labor intensive as it was we felt that it brought so much to the project that we did it for several projects after that.

In each of those projects that followed something changed in the way that we working with aluminum we were no longer welding joints for example we were bending joints and eventually we were at that scale we were running out of things to do with aluminum. Now we still have some ideas for much bigger work, but in the recent projects we have moved to steel. And there is something about the material itself doesn’t want to behave the same way it doesn’t want to have a sparkle, it doesn’t have a natural sparkle now we are looking some the steel work has been painted, and we looking at getting different effects of getting out of that by using color that we haven’t been using with previous projects.

4.

您刚才提到你们自己一直在做很多的建筑结构，我觉得在当今的建筑领域里这是非常非常独特的，这就像是从一个设计中产生了一个设计包，从概念到设计你们都在一个设计包里面，那么你们自己不辞劳苦、亲自动手的原因是什么呢？
So just you mentioned you guys have been doing alot of construction by yourself and I think its super unique in contemporary architecture field and this almost like one design package from one design, from concept to design you guys all in one package, so whats the reason behind getting your hands dirty and doing this by yourself?

我觉得作为年轻的建筑师，尤其是一个刚刚起步的事务所，当你开办事务所时，项目不会主动来找你的，它们不会突然出现在你面前。所以，当你有了很多的想法而你真的没有任何预算或者客户时，你就必须动手自己做。

在我们的事务所创立之初，我们决定要做的是投资我们自己的劳动来实现真正的创新实验工程，所以这一切都是出于树立形象的需要，做一些我们想做的事情，这样就不会受到建筑成本的限制，不会受到那些不想建造或者不能以合理的价格来建造的承包商的阻碍。所以现在我觉得我们正处于一个节点上，在这里我们正在使用这样的方法，并不是因为需求而是出于对建筑的热爱。我们还意识到我们学到了太多关于材料研究的知识以及材料会如何表现，而这又会反馈到我们的设计中，所以我们还发现建筑过程在我们的设计过程中正变得越来越重要。

我们从中学到的另一件事是，我们发现由于亲自建造，我们的工作做得更好了，这并不仅仅是因为我们投入了很多的精力，而是因为我们正在投入更多的精力，有一种更加亲密的接触使得我们思考要做的是什么样的设计决策，使得我们能够做出那些改变。如果我们不是这样密切地参与其中的话，那些改变就不会发生。有意思的是，现在我们注意到我们正处在一个节点，在这里工作正在进行，我们只是绝对无法继续去建造，现在的规模需要更多的员工和专业知识，而我们目前并没有拥有这些。因此我们真的必须亲自参与工作，以便确保那种对项目的亲密感以不同的方式依然会出现。

I think as young architect especially as a young office when you open an office projects don’t come to you they don’t just suddenly come to you and so when you have alot of ideas and you don’t really have any budget or client you started to have to make them yourself.

What we decided to do is in the beginning of our office was to invest in our own labor in realizing really kind of innovative experimental projects so it really came out of the necessity of building up a portfolio and doing something that we want to be doing and instead of being hindered by construction cost and contractor who wont want to build it or cant build it at a reasonable price. So now I think we are at a point where we are using it not because of necessity but we are doing them because of the love of building, and we are also realizing that we are learning so much as to how we put things together. It’s improving our design and also we are learning so much about material research and how material behaves. And its also feeding back into the design so we are finding that the construction process is becoming so important in our design process as well.

Yea we, just another thing we have gotten out of it is that we learn that, we found that the work is better as result of having built it and its not just that we put more energy into it, its because we were putting more energy into to it, there was a much more intimate engagement that made think about what the kinds of design decisions ere happening and it allowed us to make those changes in ways that just wouldn’t have come had we not been so intimately involved. Now its an interesting thing to note that we are now at the point where work is happening where we longer, we just absolutely cant continue to build. And it’s a scale that requiring larger crews and expertise we don’t have, and so we are really having to work in order to ensure that intimacy with the project still happens in a different way.

5.

您好几次提到了尺度，这引出了我的下一个问题。你们做了很多不同规模的项目，从小型项目到大型项目，从安装到摩天大楼再到非常复杂的项目，我觉得在概念上它们有相似之处，但与此同时小型项目和大型项目之间是有一些差别的，那么在面对不同规模的项目时，它们会影响你们对设计的处理吗？
You mention couple of times about the scale, which bring up my question , you guys do a lot different scale project like small project to big project, from installation to very big towers to very big complex projects , I feel that is similarity in terms of concept but at the same time there is some difference between small projects and big projects so do you guys approach your design in front of different scale of the project with the scale in affecting the design?

在过去的将近四年的时间里，我们主要在台北做这样的一些项目。当我们刚开始做的时候，对于我们做的小型项目，我们对东西更多的是直接利用。我们一直知道，我们绝不会一直做安装的。我想说的是我们总是去研究为较大规模的项目而设计的想法。我觉得最初我们对东西都是直接利用，从某种意义上来说这是一种好的方法，但有一些没有成功。我之所以说它是一种好的方法，是因为它给了我们足够的时间，让我们能反反复复尝试不同的结构，尝试对那些想法所进行的不同的转换。我们逐渐意识到，从小型项目到大型项目的直接转化当然不会总能奏效。

例如，从构造上来说，对一根管子进行扩展在某个规模上来说是适用的，而把它应用到外观上就不是非常奏效了。因此我们在考虑把线条的想法进行转换的方式，使它适用于城市的规模，适用于较大型的建筑的构造原理。所以它们是有区别的，它们来自很多方面，来自相似的一些想法，但是它们经常要求进行巨大的转换。

We been doing these of projects mostly in Taipei for the last three almost four years and when we first started doing them there was a much more direct application for things we been doing at a small scale, we always knew, we were never doing the installations as end. The idea was always to study the ideas we had for larger work and I think in the beginning there was direct application, well kind of in a good way several of them didn’t happen and I said in a good way because it has given us time to go through several different iterations to several different transformations of those ideas. And we are coming to realize that the direct translations from a small project to a big project of course it doesn’t always work.

Structurally for example, the scaling up of a tube works at one scale and applying it to a facade doesn’t quite work so we are thinking about ways of transforming the idea of a line that is appropriate to scale of city. It’s appropriate to the scale of structural principles happen to larger buildings so they are different and think they come from many ways similar set of ideas, but they are requiring a pretty drastic transformation at times.

6.

更具体点，你们能举个例子来解释一下吗？比如你们是如何从事大型项目的，或者如何贯彻线条和密度的想法的？你们对于处理较大型的项目有一些新的想法，能举个例子吗？
More specific could you guys give an example like how do you carry like one big project like how do you carry through the idea of line and density and you guys have some new ideas, dealing with bigger projects, an example?

其中一个例子就是我们最近在台北一直在建造的一座高楼。在这个项目中没有这样的对线条的字面意思的直接转化，但是这个项目最初有一系列的线条，它们位于大楼的表面上，看上去更像是图画，像是一系列的踪迹，更多的直线元素被按比例设计成一个单位的规模、商店的规模，就是在大街上被应用的那种。那些线条就变成了一个框架或者盔甲。另一个更加简单的几何组合被放到了里面。我觉得我们还学到的一点就是，不要只用一根管子来做所有的工作，而是使用折板、玻璃、网丝等其他一些材料、其他一些表面。但是运动的理念仍然在那里，我们觉得我们是在用更多的材料来强化那种理念。

Well one example of it would be that, well with the recent tower that we been doing in Taipei. There hasn’t been such a direct translation of the literal line but the project started with series of lines that moved up the facade, and those became more like a kind of more, pixilation, like a kind a series of traces that then located more rectilinear elements. That were scaled to the scale of a unit to scale of shops that were happening at the street. The lines just became a framework or armature within another simpler set of geometries were placed within. I think what we also learn is not just using one pipe to do all of the work but using folded plates, using glass, mesh other materials other surfaces. But the idea of the movement is still there, we think we using more materials to reinforce that idea.

7.

很大程度上，在一个建筑师的职业生涯里在理念和概念上都会有一个突破，那么在你们看来，哪个项目是你们的突破呢？在你们所做的所有项目中，有没有一个项目是划时代的、开创了一个新的阶段，之后又有一个项目开启了另一个新的阶段呢？
Pretty much in an architect’s career there is one breakthrough in terms of idea and concepts. So which project you guys see as a breakthrough, and also along with all the project you guys done is there certain project you guys landmark started a new period?

我觉得我们得把这个问题分解一下。我们先从小型项目开始谈，然后再转到大型项目上吧。我的意思是我们先来谈论小型项目。是的，在我心中，我把突破看成是至高点，而不是新的想法。对我们来说，在铝结构上的一个真正的最佳状态是那个Live wire项目。这个项目融合了功能理念、美学理念、结构理念等，所有这些理念都集中到了这个相对来说简单的小型项目中。很难想象我们能在那个规模上再做一个比它更好的版本，所以对我来说它就是一个真正的至高点，我想对我们俩来说都是这样的。

至于大型规模的项目，我觉得就是被称做IAC的这个项目，这是我们自己设计的一个项目。它有着某些像窗帘、网丝这类材料的层次，这样的材料在其背后能够展现一种结构上的丰富和活力，我觉得这就是我们认为的第一个直接与先前的小型项目中的线条结构完全相关的项目。但是我觉得这是在表面的曲度与线条结构之间的一种内部权衡，对我们来说是真的非常令人兴奋的一件事，现在我们在很多项目中正真正努力去实现它。毫无疑问那就是我们的突破时刻，我们也会继续做下去。从某种意义上来说，这其实是一个开始，是下一个开始，是在一段很长时间内我们可能继续从事的东西。

I think we have to kind of divide it up lets start with the small projects and then move onto the big projects. I mean lets start with the small projects. Yeah I mean in my mind, I consider the high points the breakthroughs rather than the beginning of an idea and for us a real high point for the aluminum work was the live wire project. It tied together functional ideas the aesthetic ideas the structural ideas all into this single relatively simple small project and it was hard to imagine we did another version that was better at that scale, so that for me was a real high point, I think for both of us.

I think for bigger project I would say would be this project called IAC which is a project that we designed that has kind of a layer of this curtain mesh material that is undulating with a structural kind of a exuberance behind it and I think that’s the first project we feel like its directly related completely to previous line work of the smaller projects but I think that’s something that the inner play between surface curvature and the line work is something that is really exciting for us and that’s something that really trying to get it build for quite a few projects now so. Yeah for sure that was breakthrough moment we going to continue to work. In a way its the beginning, that’s the next beginning that something that we probably going to be working on for a very long time.

8.

所以那个项目也带来了另外一个元素，也就是面。你们怎么把这个新的面元素和之前的线相结合的呢？
So that bring another element, which is surface as compared to just a line and density, so how do you guys see the add on the surface with the previous concept with line?

毫无疑问，我们发现我们所做的这两者之间有着某种几何关系，现在最大的挑战就是刚才詹妮提到的那个项目。我们发现相对扁平的表面有一种关联，它是三维的，但却不是完全立体的。我觉得现在的努力就是如何能真正发现空间上的深度，在其内部以我们对线条结构一直坚持的那种方式来体验它，我们如何通过使用表面来做到这一点。

在我们最近的一个项目中，就是这座位于西班牙的房子，我觉得我们积极地尝试使用窗帘的创意，不仅仅是在表面上使用，我的意思是在过去的几年中，比较大型的项目总是外观项目，我们真的是想把它应用到这个建筑中，所以我觉得这是第一次有皮肤被剥落到空间里面去的感觉，实际上我们正积极采用这种循环空间。所以我觉得这对我们来说是相当令人兴奋的。

Certainly, we find a geometric relationship between the two that we continue to work on , think that now the big challenge now is the project that Jenny mentioned. What we found was a relationship between relatively flat surface it was three dimensional but wasn’t exactly spatial and I think the struggle now that was renovation we were ask to just re-skin the project. I think the struggle now is how really find spatial depth and experience within it the way we were always insisting on with the line work how we find that with the use of surface.

And I think in our most recent project this house in Spain I think we are actively trying to get the curtain idea not just exist t on facade I mean the larger project within the last few years have always been the facade projects and I think we are really trying to bringing it into the building , so I think this is the first time it feels like the skin is peeling into the space and actually actively engaging the kind of circulation space. So I think that is exciting for us.

9.

你们的下一步计划是什么呢？
Whats next and next move?

我觉得现在对我们来说真的是一个令人兴奋的时刻，我们一直在接触这么多大型项目，希望在接下来的几年中它们会真的发生，甚至我们的小型项目，我觉得它们也在变得越来越大、越来越精致。因此，你知道的，一个事务所的状态就是如何真正地去平衡小型项目和大型项目。或许你们可以谈谈这些项目。

不，我将只是说一下下一步，我们将找到利用其中一些东西的方法，这些东西我们一直在做并做了很长一段时间。就像我说的，安装，这个想法从来都不重要，安装正是我们所从事的工作。有一段时间我们收集了很多想法，我觉得现在是检验它们的时候了。但是无疑一些会失败，一些会成功，而这也是我们一直这样做的目的。

我会告诉你我们的事务所在项目方面目前一直在做的事。目前我们正在为建筑学院建一个设施，它是我们去年建造的毕业亭的附加部分。我们还在为一个剧本项目构建第二部分，这个项目两个月前我们刚刚完成，就是这种用绳子做成的墙，一两个月之后就会投放。似乎我们在西班牙建造的房子和在台北建造的大厦至少都正在施工中。似乎事情正在一步步前进，所以我们也在期待着。

I think right now is a really exciting time for us, we been on the cusp of so many bigger projects hope that they will happen in the next few years and even our smaller projects. I feel like they have been, you know, also getting bigger and getting more refined. So you know a state of the office is really how to balance the small projects with large projects, maybe you can talk about the projects.

No, I will just say the next we will find ways of applying some of these things we have been working for a long time and installations. Like I said, the idea was never been important, installations was what we did, we have been collecting a lot of ideas for a while and I think its times to test them. But some will fail and some will succeed, so its what we been doing it for.

I will tell you what has been happening in the office in terms of projects, we are currently building an installation for Sci-Arc its an addition to the graduation pavilion we did last year. We are also doing a part two to the screenplay project which was another project we just finished two months ago, which was this kind of wall made of rope that’s launching in a couple of months. And it seems like our house in spain and our tower in Taipei are both happening at least it seems like its moving forward so we are looking forward to that as well.

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